How Do You Create a New French Wine Appellation?

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Foreign.

Bonjour, Caroline.

We are the real fishwives of Paris.

And today we have a guest.

Bonjour, Yves.

Bonjour.

Yves Quieron is a legendary winemaker from the northern Rhone who is famous for many things, not least of which rescuing Viognier from extinction.

But that is a different episode because today we're going to talk about the creation of a new appellation.

So can you tell us about yourself, please?

So I am a winemaker in northern Rhone, in a small village called Chavanet.

It's just in the middle of the Condrieu appellation and I own a family vineyard.

I am the third generation.

That's the year we were born.

It is the year we were born.

It's beginning to be a long time.

And so.

So I think one thing that's we're really interested in speaking with you about because you have so many projects, so many feathers in your cap, we're really excited in about your role in creating this new Appalachian.

And we here at the Real Fishwise of Paris love ourselves a paradox.

So you're creating a new Appalachian, but in an area that's very, very old.

Right.

Can you tell us a little bit about.

Yes, for me it's not a creation because I need to explain the northern Rhone.

Northern Rhone.

It's a very old vineyard planned by the Romans and always with a good reputation because it's a beautiful place.

It's a terroir in terraces near the Rhone valley and all the Wine from northern Rhone have always a good selling and good reputation.

And we have an old book from the 18th, 19th century, where the Condrille, the Hermitage, the Scotretti was the most good wine from France and from the world at this time.

But we have a bad period in northern Rhone.

It's the beginning of the 20th century, after the Phyllox era crisis.

We have the first and the Second World War.

And because the vineyard is very difficult to work, a big part of the northern Rhone vineyard disappear during this period.

And there is a renaissance with me, in fact, during the 80s, there is a generation we replant, we make the renaissance of the northern Rhone.

So Eve mentioned phylloxera.

It took a while to figure it out, and it was devastating all over the world.

And then we have this, then we have World War I, then we have World War II.

Entire wine industry globally, I believe, really is a post World War II construction, because everything that came before was massively disrupted by this.

Essentially a pandemic for grapes.

And then these wars and the global disruption.

There's a lot of reasons why maintaining the vineyards was not financially or physically possible, because these are high intensity vineyards.

To farm, it's difficult.

You cannot use machines.

These are labor of love, really.

Yes, it's the fact it's in terraces, so it's very hard to work.

It need a lot of arms towards the vineyard.

So we are talking about, basically, the northern Rhone is from a town called Mont Elimar in the south up to Vienne in the north.

But Cote Roti is a little bit south of Vienne.

Hermitage is sort of in the middle.

We have a few appellations, St. Joseph, CRO, Samitage, Contrieux, which is the viognier that you rescued from almost sudden death, which is again another story that's very interesting.

But what we're going to talk about today is, is an area called the Vin de Vienne, or Cesul, which is north of the city of Vienne, closer to where we are right now in Lyon, but was fully abandoned.

Right.

I mean, there was nothing.

Yes, I explained the story of the northern Rome, because Cesule is the same story.

But the Condrieux normally disappear, but always stay.

But CES totally disappear.

And we create the appellation during the 30s and the 40s.

And at this time there is no vineyard in Sessuel.

So no appellation and the vineyard totally disappear.

So you created basically.

I mean, not you personally, but the Appalachian system was created in the 30s and 40s, and most appellations we know of were created at the same time, right?

Yes.

Okay.

The first appellation for wine and for everything it's created by.

It's a winemaker from Chateauneuf du Pap.

This is.

I want to take a second to explain appellations again.

And we say this every time on this podcast.

We're going to say it again.

I'm going to keep explaining the appellation system.

And so basically, an appellation is a set of rules that is attached to a place.

So it is the idea that the place is what makes it special, but that it also comes with traditions.

Yes.

For wine, that means grape variety, it means wine making, it means farming, it means packaging the bottle.

We have aoc, Abellation, Origine Controller.

We also have aop, Abelacion de Regine Protege, which is the more modern version,.

New name of ours.

And so that's the top tier.

Beneath that we have igp, that's Indication Geographique Protege.

An IGP is a lot looser.

It's still some protection.

It's still a regional designation.

And then the other words that we're going to use, we're going to talk about the inau.

So the INAU is I N A O.

And that is the Institut National Institut Nationale de Regine.

Appellation de Regine, Institut Nationale, the Appellation de regine.

And the ENAU is the governing body.

And so the ENAU are the people who, in the 30s, I think it was called something else then, but they are the ones who basically got experts together to systematize and bureaucratize and officialize all of this work.

And.

But let's rewind a little bit, because you were talking also about.

So when the appellations, the original appellations were being created because Cesarel had no vines.

Is that what you were saying?

No, Appalachian.

And it's for that I am with two other friends, Pierre Gaillard and Francois Villard, at the origin of the first repetition of the vineyard of Cesule.

We find that in the old book that it was planted.

It was the first vineyard planted in northern Rhone before the Quatte Roti, the vineyard of Cesules.

And after, we have a lot of books who speak about seceules in the 18th, 19th century.

And always it was a great appellation from Northern Roll at this time.

And the vineyard totally disappeared.

And so we Decide.

We make a joint venture of three winemakers.

So you planted these grapes with the idea of bringing back.

But we take the grapes it was writing in the old book.

So it's for that it was painted with Syrah and Viognier.

It's for that we replant only.

Even if we can plant other grapes, we decide to replant only the variety planted in the past.

Because the idea behind it was to.

To refine the appellation.

Because for us, it's a forgetting from the story, this appellation.

So we want to.

Yeah.

To bring it back to what it was, to its previous.

I mean, greatness.

Right?

Yes, because it's a very beautiful terroir.

It's the same soul as Cotrotis, because normally you have the Rhone river, and on the right side of the Rhone, it's the old mountain from France, Massif Central, it's granite.

And the other side, the left side of the Rhone, it's sediment from the Alps.

So it's very different, the terroir in the two side of the Rhone.

But sometime the Rhone cut the massive central.

And so the vineyard of Cesule is in front of Cotrotie, and we have exactly the same soil than Cotrotie.

It's interesting because today, when we're dealing obviously with climate change too, those vineyards are southwest facing.

Right.

We.

And Khot Roti is southeast facing.

So actually there's an advantage to being southwest.

It's a little bit cooler.

Right.

And it's a little bit further north.

Yes.

And so it's a slightly cooler vineyard, which is good for Sicha.

Yes, yes.

For instance, the global warming for northern Rhone, it's not a bad thing, because before the global warming, northern Rhone was a little too cool.

And sometimes we have to add sugar because we harvest often under 12 Percentage of sugar in the grapes.

And now with the new climate, we are more maturity regular.

And for instance, it's not too much.

It's okay for now.

It's okay.

It's perfect.

And it's fact that the Sessue vineyard, it's more at the north.

So for us, it's a good thing.

Especially with the global warming.

Oh, yeah.

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So when you're talking about the specificity of the terroir and the fact that this terroir is so comparable to Cote Roti, I think what's interesting, sometimes for American consumers who come to France for the first time, they're used to going to a wine shop and naming a grape.

They walk in and they say, I want a Merlot or I want a Chardonnay.

And when we're in France, we don't really do that.

We say, I want a Bordeaux or even more specific, more specific, I want a Santa Mignon.

I want.

And so when you have such a huge amount of land and such a wide variety of terroirs in the igp, I'm assuming that the reason that you've started pursuing the appellation status is because you have this unique terroir that isn't really indicated on the bottle.

Is that kind of the idea?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So the problem, yes, normally with the Agip wine, we put the name of the grapes.

So me at the main quiron, I produce some Syrah Egypt, Viognier Egypt.

But for this wine, we don't want to use Syrah because we want to.

For us, it's an appellation.

And in appellation in France, you don't put the grapes because you prefer to focus on the terroir and not in the grapes.

Okay.

And so we begin to ask to have an appellation.

And certainly this year we will be Coduron.

So we move to Egypt to Aupe Coduron.

But we don't want to be Aupe Coduron.

We want to be crew.

So as soon we will be Coduron, we will ask to be crew.

But we have to beginning by Cody run because we're not in.

In is There where the vineyard is.

So.

Oh, so this is.

Yeah, so this is extra complex because basically you're asking Cote Duron, which is a huge.

To get bigger.

Yeah, so.

So we have basically.

And this is very French paperwork.

You can't go straight to what you want.

You have to go sideways and skip over and around until you get to the appellation.

This is, I think, symptomatic of the bureaucracy that governs most of life in France.

When you were talking earlier about the fact that most of the Appalachians were created in the 30s, the new ones, which are mostly happening in regions like Languedoc, you have to be absorbed into the bigger appellation before you can create your little appellation.

We can't have a crew if we are not in the big appellation, Cody.

Because we are allowed.

When you are in Condrieu or in Cote Roti, you can sell your wine if you want.

In Cody Rone, you can declassified in Cody Rone.

So the codierone have to be inside the cotrotie or condrieus.

Interesting.

Like Russian nesting dolls.

But appellations.

Exactly.

Okay, so when was the first piece of paperwork that you gave to the INAU to start this process?

What year was that?

It takes a long time.

We begin to ask to be Appellation more than 10 years ago.

It's because also Cody run.

It's a huge appellation.

So when they make a revision of the Code Duron, it's lot of work to see every.

Because they don't make the revision only for us.

When they decide to make the revision, they go everywhere in the appellation.

So it's a lot of work.

There's so many parts to it.

Because it's not just about the paperwork you have to create.

The Cahiers des charge is basically a huge document and that is going to outline the physical boundaries, which is always going to anger someone.

There's always someone who.

Who wants to be in, who's out.

You know, there's politics.

Yes.

And then you all collectively have to decide, you know, so you're asking a lot of people to.

To agree on something, which is difficult too.

Yes.

So now we are.

I said 25 producers.

So we have.

We have a team, but we have all in the same.

We have a good.

It's a good team because we want.

All have the best for the appellation.

So there is no fight.

That's good.

That's good.

So what is in the Cayer des charges?

So it was very more precise than the other cayenne charge.

So we take inspiration of that, but we also adapt with.

That's good.

So what are, for example, the grapes that are allowed and how big is the area?

So the area, I think it's 200.

200 Hectare.

Okay.

But it will be difficult to plant more than 100 hectare because there is a lot of place protected by the.

By the state?

Yes, by the state.

The trees.

Okay.

The natural place.

Yes.

Yeah.

And which grapes are allowed in the Aopolis?

So we decide to have the two color.

So we want to have Secuel red and white.

And we have two grapes, Syrah and Viognier.

And for the red, we want to do like in Cotrotit, we can add Viognier with the syrup.

Cool.

Oh, yeah.

That's really cool because that's adding white wine.

Grape.

White wine to a red wine or white.

Yes.

The specificity of cotrotis to have a white variety since a very long time.

It's an old tradition too.

And the Viognier, it's a variety with a lot of expression, lot of aromatic, and it give a complexity for the red and the finesse to the red too.

Yes.

Are there any techniques that you've also included in the Calle de Charge in addition to the grapes and the region?

So we have the yield, how you prune the vineyard, how you.

The density of plantation, the number, the.

Higher of the height of the actual vines.

Yeah.

Yes.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

The number of leaves, for example.

Wow.

Okay.

Lots of.

Lots of regulations.

You do like a rule in this country.

Well, I think.

I mean, all of the Appalachians have these rules, and I think people follow them the best they can.

Yes.

So we have a control.

So we have a Cayer des Charge and we have a controller, if you respect the densities and that person works for the inaugural.

The pressure to have a summer worth posting about is real.

So is financial stress, social exhaustion, and the anxiety that sneaks in right when things are supposed to feel good.

Grow therapy can help with that.

Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around.

They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US Offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekends.

Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help.

Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans.

Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan.

Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started.

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It's a neutral organism.

It's not.

It's a private organism.

Okay.

It's kind of similar in the United States to the organic system, where you have the USDA that's controlling the organic label, and then they hire other companies and the organic.

Okay, cool, cool.

And I heard you also had another little stumbling block that you had to come up against, which is the name.

So Cisrel is the historic name of this region.

Yes.

We take a long time to find the name, and finally we have it.

Okay.

In the old book, when it was speaking about this vineyard, it was always Sessuel.

But Sessuel, there is an appellation not very far who is called a Sessile.

So.

So the idea is to put two names, Secuel and Vienne.

Okay.

I don't know if the name is.

It's Viennese.

Viens.

Yes.

Is in the Savoie.

But it's so obscure.

It's so little.

Nobody knows it.

Nobody knows it.

It's a petillant, isn't it?

It's a.

Yes, yes.

A petillon.

It's like a spa.

Yeah, It's a crement.

It's a sparkling Altes from the Savoie.

It's like, so random.

It's basically like when you get a movie star who tells you that they had to change their stage name when they become like.

Like.

Nathan Lane is not actually called Nathan Lane.

He's got a different first name, but there was somebody already registered with that name.

So that's crazy.

You have to.

You have to bow down to a lesser star, because this is obviously going to become a fantastic star.

And so if, you know, if you're listening to this and you're wondering why it matters, why do we care about naming things and having all these rules and all of these designations?

You know, before the Appalachian system, it really was the wild West.

There was a ton of fraud.

You know, they were.

They were buying raisins from turkey and making wine out of that and selling it as Hermitage, you know, and so consumers had no way of knowing what they were drinking, and there was much less awareness of any wine beyond your immediate vicinity.

But even those wines were largely pretty.

Pretty crappy.

Honestly.

They weren't very good.

And.

And they were often not even French.

And so this was a way to protect French winemakers, protect the patrimony of French wine, but also to protect consumers and make sure that they understand what they're getting and that they're getting something that is high quality.

So this has obviously been a lot of work for you, and as winemakers, you're already working very, very hard.

So is there a real reason for you why it's important to have this appellation, to have this name on the bottle now?

Why.

Why are you exc.

Now?

Yes.

Because the difficulty, if we don't sell it a good price, the work is very hard in the vineyard, because it's a terraces vineyard, very steep.

So if it's a vineyard, easy to work with a machine.

If we don't sell it, expensive.

You can produce more and produce cheap wine.

But here we don't have the choice to make quality and.

And to sell with a good price.

So getting the appellation status allows you to market it at a higher level for a better price.

So we are happy because without appellation, all the producer of Secuel arrived to sell the wine.

But to have the appellation, it will be a next step, and certainly it will make the wine more known.

And if it's more known, it's more easy to sell.

And it's, Yeah, I think something that we take for granted today in.

In this time.

And we.

We touched on this a little bit, but we have, you know, consumers don't realize how much this region struggled and suffered to maintain their connection to wine throughout the difficulties that we already discussed.

But this is also about history.

It's about reclaiming ancestry.

It's about something that has been going on since, you know, Guiguel and Fleury.

Vidal revitalized Cote Roti, since you and Gaillard and Villard revitalized Condrieux, which, again, there were 8 hectares of Viognier in the world.

You guys, this is, again, we need to have another episode about that, because it's crazy.

You know, this is a region that is really famous right now, but.

But was not very famous until the 80s.

The 90s.

Yes.

When I begin during the 80s, I remember I go to Paris or another place in France, and nobody knows Cornhes Convoyeux, where it comes from.

It's Burgundy, because the vineyard normally disappears.

So it's right that we were very famous in the end of the 19th century.

And the reputation nearly totally disappeared because the vineyard disappeared.

And after 50 years without bottles, nobody remember.

So this is about.

I mean, we're still seeing the pioneers continuing to pioneer, and that's what you guys are doing and bringing this appellation into the light, bringing it back to life.

It was dead, fully dead.

This is a really exciting time.

It's exciting and it shows that even though we have all these rules and they feel really old, it's all still really modern, it's all still evolving.

It's all still growing and changing and there's still exciting things that are happening.

So it's pretty, Pretty cool.

Yeah, it's amazing.

Thank you for.

Thank you so much spearheading this and for working so hard.

I mean, it is a lot of bureaucracy and it takes, as you mentioned, a lot of time.

So when do you expect, what do you expect the timeline for the future of the Appalachian to be?

How long is it going to take you to get what you really want?

So we expect to have the appellation of Cru in three, five years.

And I think with.

But the problem, we can plant a lot of vineyard more.

I think if we have 100 hectare, it will be.

That's tiny.

It's little.

It will be a small appellation like Hermitage, like Condrieu, but the Northern Rhone, it's always a small appellation.

So that I don't say that at the beginning, but Northern ruin, it's under 5% of the Rhone Valley.

It's.

It's tiny.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I mean, I think one thing that's interesting as well to me is that right now I feel like Vander France, which before had a terrible reputation.

Yeah.

Now some Van der France actually have a good reputation.

So with people being a little bit more open minded towards drinking things that they might not recognize, do you feel like it's still important because of the pricing, or do you think it's still important because of the prestige or both?

So, yes, Vin France, it's more and more popular because with vin France, it's a guarantee.

The wine comes from France, but you have a lot of liberty.

You can plant the grapes you want, you can do lot of experimentation, use barrels or other things.

You can do lot of.

So you have a lot of freedom and some producer can experiment lot of things and make some funny wine.

But for this wine, we want to stay very traditional.

For us, it's a cru.

Even if we are not Cru today, for us, we work since the beginning like a cruise so we use the traditional method with barrels.

We make a small yield.

In Egypt, we were allowed to produce the double than appellation, but because we want to work it like appellation since the beginning.

Yeah.

And I think that's something we've seen on previous episodes of this podcast, is that often in France, some of the most innovative things are actually taking a page out of the book of your ancestors and trying to bring back something that was lost in these periods, like you mentioned, these periods of really austere, you know, adversity, phylloxera wars.

So, I mean, it's innovation and tradition coming together in a really beautiful way.

It's very cool and it's.

It's exciting to see it happening in real time now.

You know, these.

This is what, a 30 minute, 40 minute drive from where we're sitting?

It's very close by.

It's very close to Lyon.

Yeah, it's very close to Lyon.

Well, well, thank you so much.

Yves Quieron, one of the most legendary winemakers that is making wine today.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you.

It's a pleasure.

And everyone make sure to find your local bottle of Vin de Vienne.

Yes.

And keep your eyes peeled for that Cote Duron status and eventually the appellation, the crew status.

Yeah.

This has been the real Fishwives of Paris and it's been amazing.

What an incredible journey.

I know.

I feel like I've learned so much.

Yeah, it's really exciting.

So merci beaucoup.

Et au revoir.

Au revoir.

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